“WILD SPECULATION IS SIN”

Reinhard Marx, 55, archbishop of Munich and Freising, on the end of turbo-capitalism and the significance of Karl Marx in catholic social teaching

[This interview is translated from the German in: Spiegel 44/2008.]

Spiegel: Mr. Marx, we are a little unsure how to address you.
Reinhard Marx: Most say, “Mr. Archbishop.”

Spiegel: Wouldn’t you prefer comrade Marx?
Marx: Why do you say that?

Spiegel: You wrote a book titled “Das Kapital” that begins with a letter to Karl Marx. Mr. Archbishop, why do you flirt with your namesake?
Marx: Karl Marx should still be taken seriously. There was a time when many thought the old Marx was finished. That was a fallacy.

Spiegel: The catholic Norbert Blum cheerfully proclaimed to Danzig dockworkers in 1989: “Marx is dead; Jesus lives.”
Marx: That is true for Jesus Christ.

Spiegel: Marxists are now celebrating a kind of resurrection of their messiah.
Marx: That is not really my concern. I want us as a church to reconnect to catholic social teaching, which has always taken Marx and his analysis very seriously. The Marxist movement has real causes and many important questions. At the same time, catholic social teaching has clearly warned: If we follow Marx, life will worsen.

Spiegel: Why are you now explicitly occupied with Karl Marx?
Marx: One basic idea has occupied me for years. This is planted in the encyclical “Centesimus annus” composed by John Paul II after the collapse of communism. He said: If capitalism cannot solve the basic problems of the justice, solidarity and freedom of people but reopens the trenches, the old ideologies return. He obviously meant Marxism. That analysis seems very plausible to me.

Spiegel: Capitalism and the market economy are in a grave crisis these days. In your book, you ask whether it is not time to apologize to Karl Marx. You still owe us a clear answer.
Marx: The dean of catholic social teaching, Oswald von Nell-Breuning, said controversially: We stand on the shoulders of Karl Marx. Though passionately criticized, he was right.

Spiegel: Do you, a catholic archbishop, stand on the shoulders of Karl Marx?
Marx: We all stand on his shoulders because we work off him in history and the history of ideas – positively or negatively. In his analysis of the situation in the 19th century, Marx made many points that are uncontested.

Spiegel: Would you say it is time to apologize to him?
Marx: I believe this has already happened. We catholic social ethicists never simply identified the philosophical work of Marx with Stalin or with Gulag. Marx cannot be blamed for what certain imitators have done. Marx made a totalitarian claim and notion of society that I do not share. He had a conception of classes in which people are set against other people. As a Christian, I say No because I see the individual person as God’s image.

Spiegel: The concept of the dictatorship of the proletariat, the basis of the rule claim of communist parties, was part of this class theory – with disastrous consequences. What can one learn from a man with such ideas?
Marx: Marx recognized the core of globalization as a globalization of capital. He saw there an accumulation that could suddenly change into a new quality that is massively unjust. He also rightly analyzed the commodity character of labor and warned against the economization of all areas of life.

Spiegel: Thus communism has not definitively disappeared from the globe with the end of the Soviet Union?
Marx: By no means. We experience his renaissance. Marx thought capital is would perish in its own contradictions. He foresaw that a primitive capitalism could become a danger for the world. The warning of John Paul II is justified: When a radical capitalist ideology spreads, Marxism becomes alive again.

Spiegel: How can “turbo-capitalism” be tamed?
Marx: A bishop is not a direct political actor. But engaged Christians should change structures in politics. Charitable engagement is not enough. The economy must be organized according to ethical principles without simply abolishing the market. These rules of the game must have an ethical quality. In this sense, catholic social teaching is critical of capitalism.

Spiegel: The social market economy was the successful answer to pure capitalism and also a counter-model to socialism. Should the idea of the social market economy be reconsidered?
Marx: Capitalism without ethical and legal frameworks is misanthropic. That is the basic insight of these days, the lesson from the financial- and banking crisis.

Spiegel: Is there a connection between the deregulation of capitalism and the collapse of communism?
Marx: Unfortunately yes. The pressure of system competition suddenly ended. Years ago I insisted: wild speculation is sin. Many attacked me at that time and said that was impossible. You criticize people for earning a little money. Then I said: That is mad and oversimplifies.
Spiegel: Isn’t the alternative the return to a market economy that is regulated and not completely free?
Marx: Yes, we need an organized market economy, not revolution. We must r4aise the simple questions: What helps humanity? Is the person at the center? How does he or she gain work and education? These are all things that cannot only be regulated by the market. I am amazed that this knowledge was lost.

Spiegel: Do you have an explanation?
Marx: Perhaps very simply, the explanation is greed.

Spiegel: Greed is a basic human pattern.
Marx: Greed and sin are planted in the person until the Lord comes. From a moral-theological standpoint, structures seduce people to evil. There are circumstances in which evil is rewarded. In 2000 I read an editorial “In Praise of Greed.” Then a bishop says: Stop, where have we landed?

Spiegel: Your namesake with whom you have been so intensively focused saw the core of all evil in property relations. At the end, these relations lead to excesses. What do you think of this basic thesis?
Marx: I do not agree. Property relations are not the problem but the order of property. Gaining property through labor is part of human dignity. A false understanding of equality destroys freedom.

Spiegel: Why is the defense of property an important point in discussing Marxist theory?
Marx: Property – according to Thomas Aquinas – is an essential foundation for freedom. Whoever has nothing and offers his labor power is exploited. That is the philosophical reason why we say Marxism with its hostility to property leads to a person becoming unfree.

Spiegel: What suddenly makes a catholic bishop into an expert about the financial crash and the stock market debacle?
Marx: The economy does not only happen in the economy. Everyone is involved, including bishops. I focused on these questions as a professor of social theory.

Spiegel: What is the orientation of the church to society in this difficult phase?
Marx: Catholic social teaching, the social encyclicals of the popes, gives clear guidelines for political decisions and economic conduct. Capital profit is not the only goal of the economy.

Spiegel: Do you demand repentance from the failed bankers?
Marx: I call them to conversion as well as everyone who thought of quickly becoming rich without labor by investing money speculatively – without regard for the consequences. People sat on barstools with laptops and made a million. A big German economic decision-maker told me: young people from the university expect an initial salary of a million euros. This investment-banking story is completely twisted. Incentive systems can lead people in the wrong direction. Here I urge conversion.

Spiegel: The two Union-parties still have C in their names, C for Christian. Until recently, they celebrated neoliberalism. Do you hope for a change in thinking?
Marx: That would be beautiful.

Spiegel: Yes. I have hope. That is true for all the parties. The CDU was the party that tried to develop the idea of the social market economy after the Second World War. That was a great project at that time. The capitalism we had before the Second World War could not continue. We must bring new ideas, a new order of society and a new order of the economy. Catholic social teaching is intent on new thinking. The social market economy is a civilization product. Many have forgotten this.

Spiegel: The current debate is not going that deep. At the moment, politics is more like a repair shop. Everyone asks how can capitalism be repaired a little?
Marx: The time for sustainable economics has come. We should speak about hedge funds, a worldwide social economic order, strengthening the monetary fund, rules and moral standards. This will happen and should begin now.

Spiegel: Very radical conclusions are drawn elsewhere. In Latin America, socialism is experiencing an amazing comeback.
Marx: This reaction cannot be surprising.

Spiegel: You give many kinds of political advice. The church has long ignored the problems of poverty and the division of society.
Marx: Wait a moment. The social movement of the church began earlier. Early church protest raged against child labor without people knowing anything of Marxism. The social movement wanted social reform and never revolution, a constant reform of the system. That is its essential difference to Marxism.

Spiegel: But that was long ago. Now there is great silence about catholic social teaching.
Marx: Yes. For a long time, catholic social teaching has not really been systematically received. Some Latin American regions are regarded as either outstripped or dangerous. In Europe, on the other hand, catholic social teaching has been prominent in the social legislation. A catholic priest, Heinrich Brauns, who was labor minister in the Weimar republic for eight years, introduced unemployment insurance. There were very different ideas about translating the social teachings of the church into political programs. That was not clear in many other countries and is a deficit.

Spiegel: In your book, you levy radical criticism of capitalism. Sometimes you see a catch-up need in your own cause because the church was rather politically abstinent for much too long.
Marx: I have long been active in the catholic social movement and social teaching. Caritas issued the first poverty report in Germany. Our parish priests go into the mission given by Jesus when they focus on the charitable side. Where are the poor in this part of the city? When this is faded out, something is missing in the church.

Spiegel: The church is seen socially as a charitable authority. This approach does not seem enough.
Marx: Charity is unquestionably important and central but is not sufficient. I hope for the rediscovery of catholic social teaching. Structures must be changed even though we will not create the ideal world. The welfare state, just globalization and chances of participation are crucial structures. The poor and disadvantaged must have chances.

Spiegel: Is your book also an attempt to warn of Marxism?
Marx: The book is also a discussion with the left and with the renaissance of Marxist theory.

Spiegel: With the German Left party?
Marx: Certainly. For me, the Left party has not worked out its past and has not really clarified its understanding of Marxism.

Spiegel: How strange that a bishop gives private lessons to the Left party!
Marx: My name is my obligation.

Spiegel: Mr. Archbishop, we thank you for this interview.